Posts by Jonathan Drake

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@myelaine

you said:

in the bible God makes it quite clear what His plans are for both the earth and mankind. The only "jinn" that aren't in on the plan are the fallen angels and those they "inspire".

Yet as I've shown, the bible shows this is not so. There is knowledge of the outcome but not the means by which it is reached. That is the reason why the Angels covet what they do not have, which is the gospel- because it reveals part of the plan and they may learn something of it through the gospel. It wasn't revealed to them but to us. Hence they covet it, they lust after it because it has meaning for them too. There is no reason for them to covet it if they already know how things are going to go between then and the end, but clearly they do not and they lust after the knowledge they can find in scriptures given to mankind.

so when the Quran says the jinn, or the Angels, don't know what God has in store for the earth, this is true. They don't know anything except that the original purpose will be realized, but not how and not when- so the ph covet the bible. Thus the Quran and the bible once again appear to agree.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Also, it's not an interpretation.

Yes it is, because HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people interpret it to mean the exact opposite of what you do. I'd say your outnumbered viv.

You personally have said you would hit a woman.

Yes I did, but in context what I said was that I know my wife would HIT ME if I treated her the way the Quran is depicting in those verses. And I would hit her as well- BECAUSE ITS DESCRIBING NORMAL HUMAN BEHAVIOR IN A HEATED SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE ARE SEVERELY MISTREATING ONE ANOTHER. It is not saying, "hit your wife to remind her of her place." You are all the ones being intellectually dishonest because you WANT the Quran to be the reason for these terrible things, YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY THESE BAD THINGS HAPPEN.

The truth is, sometimes there is no reason, sometimes people just want to hurt others. THAT is reality, and YOU aren't accepting it.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Because you misinterpret one scripture (saying it says the angels continually desire to look into what was the mystery of Christ) and connect it with another one that isn't even about the gospel but the day and the hour.
you mishandle the text and "lol" because I disagree...wow

I did not mishandle the text, I'm starting to think you just don't want to see it.

jesus, in the flesh (according to the bible) said that the Angels don't know the day or the hour. Then, quite some time AFTER this, well after Jesus died, Peter wrote that the Angels are longing to look into the gospel.

the word for longing is, "epithumeo":

1937 epithyméō (from 1909 /epí, "focused on" intensifying 2372 /thymós, "passionate desire") – properly, to show focused passion as it aptly builds on (Gk epi, "upon") what a person truly yearns for; to "greatly desire to do or have something – 'to long for, to desire very much' " (L & N, 1, 25.12).

From epi and thumos; to set the heart upon, i.e. Long for (rightfully or otherwise) -- covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).

K, so the Angels long for and covet and lust after the chance to look into the gospel. Why? Why would they desire to look into something which has the sole purpose of demonstrating and showing how gods will was both fulfilled and will be fulfilled? You're saying they already know this, but the bible is showing that they know no more than we do, and the gospel was revealed to man, not Angels- as the word means they long to have, or covet, WHAT THEY DO NOT POSESS. They are just as involved as we are, because their "brothers" in heaven forsook their place and took to following the rebellion, they have their own test- will they choose the right side. It's not much of a test if they already know and have seen the outcome is it? Hence they long to look into gods word.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Jonathan Drake - no amount of 'modernising the language' can make this particular verse any clearer. Correct?
So the question naturally arises: why would God write something, like the Bible, so muddled, confusing and open to interpretation?

It wasn't written in English. once it was written down it was in the common language of the day and the past events that surrounded it were fresh history. So for a good while the people had no problems, they read and new specifically what it was talking about and knew the language it was spoken in and later written in. Only after several generations went by did a problem arise, at a time when people no longer knew about the Meccans breaking the peace treatise and were easily convinced the Quran literally means, "kill them wherever you find them." Until now not only is the cultural context lost, but we have the issue of translating it.

the fault then would not be gods, or the books, but the loss of perspective. When I suggest modernization I mean add to the book the very necessary verses that make it clear what was going on AT THAT TIME, so as to reintroduce the perspective needed to see the meaning behind the words. If this was done, then the Quran could no longer be used as an excuse for these terrible things. The bible as well, add notes that make it clear the real inention- such as the tradition of the house steward. If this was done it'd be clear.

But again, the people wanting chaos would just find a new reason.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Once Jesus was born in the flesh the angels knew

Thats really strange since it was Jesus in the flesh saying the Angels dont know. Lol

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

We have the books. They advocate murder, rape, abortion, genocide, misogyny, slavery and theft.

Thats just your interpretation. You have no way of proving your interpretation is correct.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Surely, you have to admit that both interpretations are plausible.

For sure, as I said on the previous page and once before, there is a serious communication issue existing if these interpretations can be reached. Modernizing the language in a way that more directly emphasizes the view intended and brings the book into a new more modern understanding is certainly necessary. But to ignore the fact that the issue is one of interpretation, and therefore first and foremost a problem with the individual who thinks these things are okay, throwing all the blame on the book completely, is just bonkers.

rewrite the book and make it say the most peaceful directives of any holy book now or to come and people who want to cause chaos will find a new reason for its justification. I've been called naive several times in this thread, but I think THIS is naive, thinking the only reason these people do what they do is because of a book. Come on.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

nothing about this subject is obvious

The quran advocates hitting a wife who lacks submission - this is obvious. ( you agreed that hitting your wife might be ok sometimes)
The author of the book was a child rapist - this is obvious.
The book condemns everybody who does not believe the pedophile prophet to an eternity of torture in hell - this is obvious.

First of all, the wife slap has nothing to do with submission at all.

Secondly, prove everything you just said with a first hand account. If you can not prove, with a first hand account, what the proper interpretation of the book is or what events did or didn't happen, then you are using a second hand account and it is hearsay that proves nothing.

its just your interpretation, to use your own argument.

we are arguing opinions, and it's a waste of time.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

You are both using this word, "obvious" freely despite the fact that nothing about this subject is obvious. You're talking about a series of events and a group of people and some specific people who are between 1,415 and 4,000+ years in the past... Lol

the best thing you can do is form a hypothesis that will never have the opportunity to be either proven or disproven unless we invent time travel. Because the only evidence EITHER side has is second hand hearsay. So if you want to talk about what is obvious, the only obvious thing is that we are both arguing different points of view that will never, ever be able to be proven - EVER.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

coftya minute ago
You are the only person who thinks you have shown the quran is not a handbook for hatred, intolerance, violence and misogyny.

I think we agreed on a previous page however, that it would be best if the books linguistics were modernized to make its meaning more obvious so as to thoroughly set aside any opportunity for drawing such extreme conclusions. I do agree this should happen, because I will concede the average reader of the Quran is not going to put in the research to see what it was talking about when it says the things it says- so it should be amended so as to make this clear. Because I won't deny people do reach the conclusions you are positing, and this should be dealt with by some kind of reform instead of met with being ignored and hoping it goes away.

we established this previously.